Has capitalism gone too far?
"Spanfeller is a twat" (theaspiringengineer)
08/17/2020 at 14:36 • Filed to:
DID YOU SEE THE PUN WE MADE? ITS LIKE WITH THE HAYABUSA AND THE BLACKBIRD CUS HAYABUSA MEANS A BIRD THAT PREYS ON BLACKBIRDS AND SINCE WE HAVE THE TRX OR TREX IT MEANS WERE BETTER THAN FORD CUS THEY ONLY HAVE THE RAPTOR, OH EXPLAINING PUNS IS NOT COOL? I MEAN IM SORRY IM JUST FCA MARKETING CHIEF AND I NEED A WAY TO PUMP MORE TESTOSTERONE INTO OUR AMERICAN CARS THAT USE THE HELLCAT ENGINE... I MEAN EVEN CALLING AN ENGINE A HELLCAT GOES QUITE FAR, I WONDER WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO DODGE WHEN ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS KILL THE 6.4 OH ILL BE OUT OF A JOB AND I WONT BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN PUNS ANYMORE :(
|  0
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Or has it not gone
far enough
?
DISCUSSION (100)
Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 14:40
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Not far enough because we don’t have a Hellcat powered Pacifica or Joop.
davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 14:41
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Yeah, I definitely think we should all be driving Trabants instead.
If the question is freedom, or less-than-freedom, I think I’ll choose freedom.
(that said, these should be taxed ridiculously for how inefficient they are)
The Gas Guzzler Tax is assessed on new cars that do not meet required
fuel economy levels. These taxes apply only to passenger cars.
Trucks,
minivans, and sport utility vehicles (SUV) are not covered because these
vehicle types were not widely available in 1978 and were rarely used
for non-commercial purposes.
That law is as old as me. Might be time for an update...
E90M3
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 14:41
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It’s gone too far when it comes to how expensive some of these vehicles are.
Tripper
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 14:43
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I could drive to this to the office and no one would raise an eye, but if I spend less than half on a used 911 people will be like...”must be nice”.
Spanfeller is a twat
> E90M3
08/17/2020 at 14:44
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Even adjusted for inflation?
My bird IS the word
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 14:44
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Call me when we reach 1980s levels of excess.
Spanfeller is a twat
> Tripper
08/17/2020 at 14:44
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When you buy a Porsche, it goes without saying that you’re willing to take the hit of the maintenance
.
thats the funny part. i tell ppl how much Id like a supra for ‘oh, but its so expensive! why not get a nice truck instead’ and when i show them the price of the truck they just go: oh....sudden I hate my boss
Discerning
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 14:45
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I used to think the Raptor was silly. I still feel that way, but maybe a tiny bit less knowing this thing exists. Different magnitudes of silly for sure.
So... when the TRX comes with velour seats?
I own tools
PatBateman
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 14:46
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Capitalism is giving us 700 horsepower fucking off-road trucks, street-legal electric go-carts disguised as cars that can make your mom shit her pants in a 0-60 run, and SUVs so luxurious in their slightly above base trim that it would’ve made 1%ers drool twenty years ago. Capitalism did this.
All communism wants to do is take your shit,
give you a bread line,
and have you drive a
cheap econobox (if you’re lucky).
Grand Cherokee TrackHawk: *revs but isn’t noticed*
So... just adding you to the list of people that think “
hasn’t gone far enough.”
Spanfeller is a twat
> Tripper
08/17/2020 at 14:48
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Kidding aside, there is a psychological
implication with trucks and sportscars, specially in America. It’s seen as if a sportcar means more sacrifice than a truck in terms of practicality, so even if a truck is more expensive it’s justified through it’s range of capabilities.
Yeah and those people that go “oh”,
are driving
nearly 40k dollar xover nothing mobiles,
and will tell you “they don’t remember exactly how much it was”.
Ash78, voting early and often
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 14:49
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This thing should TOTALLY exist. However, hardly anyone should choose to buy it.
That’s responsible capitalism and it’s the greatest force for good in the history of world economics. Too bad we keep f*cking it up...
Maybe not, but some of these ridiculously expensive cars like this didn’t exist 10-20 years ago.
Is the gas guzzler tax progressive or fixed?
way2blu does a rev update
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 14:51
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What? Mini Cooper S Countryman is evolving!
Congratulations! Your small grocery getter has evolved into a full-size grocery getter!
So a mixed market economy like those silly
Europeans?
punkgoose17
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 14:53
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I am trying hard just to not go bankrupt in this game of Monopoly.
I saw a Raptor today on my way to work; it is very silly.
Agree.
All that practicality
of a big truck just to stash ya golf shoes. Meanwhile your average enthusiast will figure out a way to get a second set of wheels mounted to their miata along with the rest of the stuff they need for an autox/track day.
Spanfeller is a twat
> E90M3
08/17/2020 at 14:54
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I don’t think there were enough people with enough resources to buy so many ridiculous cars 10-20 years ago.
But in the 80s...
Just imagine what it can do in twenty more years?
Yes, let’s keep the capitalism train on track.
Yep - when I was in my 20s and got my first Lexus (2-yr old CPO), a co-worker gave me that same line. She had a new Durango. I told her it cost less than a new Accord and had a longer warranty.
That comment is one of the biggest things I dread when I finally do get a Porsche. Hell, I never even told anybody at work about the Miata when I got it in November.
D
oing your avatar proud.
If China removes their taxes based on engine size.... that alone would make trucks much more popular world wide.
That’s true. I think you’re right about car prices not out pacing inflation, it’s more of a perspective thing. It just seems there’s a lot of very expensive cars out there, and it’s probably just a perspective
thing.
I just looked and my M3 was 65k new in 2011, which is ~74k in 2020 dollars. A comparable
M4 is about the same price.
Fixed:
The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) is responsible for administering the
Gas Guzzler Program and collecting the taxes from car manufacturers or
importers. The amount of tax is posted on the window stickers of new
cars — the lower the fuel economy, the higher the tax.
Seems like they should change it so that if you could prove that you need the truck for your work or business, you’d be exempt. But the guys buying these as a daily driver, and to tow their boat to the lake 3 times a year, would pay.
I believe the more you guzzle, the more the tax.
Shes prob on Durango lease
#5 and your lex is probably still on the road.
ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability
> Tripper
08/17/2020 at 15:01
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Same with my Vette, I'm like this cost bout half what your brand new camry costs
It wouldn’t exist if hardly anyone would buy it.
It exists because enough people will surely buy it.
davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
> punkgoose17
08/17/2020 at 15:03
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Maybe you should open a Jail...
2020 Dodge Magnum Hellcat: *doesn’t exist*
Spanfeller is a twat
> E90M3
08/17/2020 at 15:07
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Bigger numbers sound scarier.... and that’s in America were inflation is somewhat under control. In 2009
a BMW M3 was like 8
00,000-9
00,000 pesos. The current M4 is 1,620,000 pesos.
fintail
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 15:07
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A vehicle
for real confident
tough guys without compensation issues. Let the money taking continue.
I think some folks have a massive misconception on how much used luxury cars cost - I remember walking out to our cars to head to lunch one day and we spot a nice Jag XF parked in the lot. A co-worker comments that belongs to someone who works in the office cafe. I respond saying that those depreciate like rocks, so it probably cost around
$20-25
k when he bought it. The co-worker was amazed.
Damn.
You’re right they do. It also didn’t matter how expensive
cars were 10 years ago, because I made $0/year back then.
PatBateman
> Milky
08/17/2020 at 15:08
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Let’s be frank. I am a firm believer that capitalism has advanced humankind farther than any other economic system in the history of the world. There are plenty of people in the capitalist world that would argue with me, and say that communism or socialism is far better. To them, I say the following:
If you’d like to move to any of the countries that has barred capitalism from its borders, I’d be more than happy to help you get there. I won’t even bust out the chainsaw, axe, or raincoat.
It would make smaller trucks (Tacoma, Ranger, Colorado, etc)
much more popular there. Outside of N. America, full size trucks aren’t that popular.
I’m actually amazed that Ford isn’t selling Raptors in Australia.
Yep! I put one of the more frugal partners onto the A6. I helped him find a very slightly used A6 3.0 for something like 37k. The sticker 18 months earlier was 70k!
Just wait, if BMW brings the M3 Wagon stateside then we’ll see a Charger HellHearse in no time!
The A6 3.0T is such a nice car and an amazing deal used.
Spanfeller is a twat
> E90M3
08/17/2020 at 15:14
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Using the school cafeteria as reference...
in 2007
I was a king with 50 pesos; I could even buy food for my friends. But in 2016 with 50 pesos I could only buy something for myself and a drink. Now in the university cafeteria I can only buy drinks with 50 pesos, not even food.
But it’s actually quite strange... cars have gotten cheaper here. A 2004 bocho was like 150,000 pesos new, while the 2017 Tsuru was like 145,000... and it was a significantly
better car.
I think, I could be wrong though, finding old car
MSRPs is proving harder than I thought.
We should eliminate that law. Set a gas tax at the pump and be done with it. If you want to swallow
5 mpg at $5/gal
by all means.
I had to push him into the 3.0. They’re an even better used deal and the 2.0 just ain’
t enough for their bigger cars. It also sounds like shit in what is supposed to be a luxury car. I had a Q5 rental that felt just like a tiguan...Sticker was 52k!
M
ate you’re allowed to like c
apitalism
and
critique it.
There’s already a gas tax... it’s just quite small because it’s not updated with inflation.
I don’t really see the markets differently in the EU, for the most part. It is the level of taxing and government programs versus the US. It’s all basically capitalism with varying level of gov’t regs but those are everywhere.
I know this is just a thread about a ridiculous truck but we should as a country stop buying into the false dichotomy of capitalism vs socialism/communism that our right-wing politicians who don’t want the government to take care of the people have set up.
Communism is its own thing entirely separate from socialism, except for the fact that authoritarian communist regimes tend to refer to themselves as socialists.
Actual
socialism, in which the government enacts and administers programs to improve quality of life for as many citizens as possible, is not in and of itself in opposition to capitalism. It is entirely possible for a country with a capitalist economy to also implement socialist programs to improve quality of life, without trampling on capitalism.
Regulating
capitalism however is necessary because profit motive, on its own, will not magically provide for all people. Businesses pursuing profit will do everything in their power to maximize profit. There need to be guardrails so the people with less power
are able to get their needs met by the economy without being screwed over by those with more power.
The massive income and wealth inequality that has grown exponentially in the past 40 years is in large part because this country allowed right-wing politicians yell
SOCIALISM!
like some scarlet letter to completely gut the social safety net and consumer protections that a functioning socialist/capitalist society needs.
It is especially foolish to do this in the USA where the #1 engine that drives our economy is consumers buying shit. If the bottom 25% of our society was able to actually support their lifestyle instead of living in an endless debt/poverty cycle, we’d have that many more consumers buying shit and driving the economy.
But noooo, can’t have those “undeserving” poors get any help from the government, the only thing government should do is get out of the way for
unfettered capitalism
the vaunted free market and magically all will be taken care of. Except that’s what we’ve been doing for the past 40 years and all it’s done is fuck everyone below the 97th percentile in income.
I know, but it isn’t high enough to do enough
meaningful repair to the roads/bridges
nor influence behavior
.
Just once, I’d like to see the Germans’ niche chasing pay off for the enthusiasts. BMW rumors a manual shooting brake 3 series and Mercedes tries to beat them to it. Then VW gives Audi license to give it a go. BOOM! The world would be all right again.
hillrat
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 15:22
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Many, many years ago . . .
Th
e markets work the same in the US and the EU, the difference being what’s NOT part of the market. Minor details like education, healthcare, social services ...
I think tolls are more effective, to be quite honest. Specially to get rid of the effect where more efficient cars lead to more miles driven
.
That punishes the working poor who might need a three-quarter-ton
truck for their business.
Ford’s had tremendous success with Raptors. This will sell plenty to make it worthwhil...
Er, no.
I’m glad Europe exists. I just don’t want to live in it.
That’s what the State Taxes are for.
This is a federal level thing.
Taxes on inefficient vehicles and vehicle types would probably be a better option. If you tax gas you repress the person who barley affords their 2004 Accord but has to commute everyday vs the person who is in their Range Rover Autobiography that works remote 4 days a week.
Updating the guzzler tax or instituting a “Carbon Tax” would target the people who purposefully drive a less efficient vehicle than is prudent without effecting low income people. You could even modify small business tax law so companies that need trucks aren’t as impacted but would still need to think twice before just purchasing one.
Sure, enough
to justify its existence...but it’ll still barely be a blip on the radar of overall truck sales. More of a brand halo (probably far more so than the Raptor is right now). Even if it’s not terribly profitable, it won’t really matter since so much is already shared with other vehicles. The polar opposite of a more traditional Halo Car, like say the Lexus LF-A that was full of bespoke parts.
Future next gen S2000 owner
> camarov6rs
08/17/2020 at 15:38
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I’m not convinced it would. Mainly for the same reason you mentioned. If you can afford a 90K gas HD truck, you can afford the gas for it.
I’m not sure either way is ideal.
I think you should do both really.
I don’t doubt it.
Look at how many Chargers/Challengers they still sell.
Sure, but it’s still expensive to bring a new model to market (EPA, IIHS, etc.).
It is interesting to see how different “tax policy” is state-by-state on diesel fuel taxes. I’ve been in a dozen states in the last month and it’s amazing how different the “spread” is between diesel and “regular”, based on geography.
It’s hilarious how ancient that platform is by now... yet they still sell a lot of Chargers.
The thing about American “quality of life” is that it varies so widely. Technically (on paper) we lag the Europeans in a lot of ways, but I would beg to differ in my personal situation. I could never have this amount of free time, this size of home, or multiple cars on my salary almost anywhere else in the industrialized world, including much of the US.
I’ve said for as long as I can remember that our country’s economic diversity (including its wealth gap) is both a sign of its success and also its eventual undoing. People innately want a sense of “fairness” and there comes a point -- maybe even right now -- where they don’t care how it’s achieved because they believe the system is rigged against them. I’ve been on both sides of that mantra and can appreciate the sentiment, but it’s not nearly as rigged as the mass media would have people believe.
!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!
Very poignant
Loud pipes
save lives
sell cars.
Nothing wrong with sticking with a good thing, I guess (old E-class chassis)? I’m sure heads rolled at Chevy when the Camaro couldn’t outsell the Challenger!
2019 numbers
:
Mustang - 72,489
Challenger - 60,997
Camaro - 48,265
I bought my Cayman used over 8 years ago for $33k
, I get that sorta snark all the time. Nobody sez shit about my new Taco, but a Porsche? Well.. welcome to the world thinking you’re an entitled douchebag
davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com
> punkgoose17
08/17/2020 at 15:52
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Sadly.
We have a lot of work to do.
Gas tax is not small. 35 to 39
cents per gallon here in GA. At < $2 a gallon that’s actually significant,
> 20%.
PatBateman
> Milky
08/17/2020 at 16:02
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Critiquing is one thing. I like my house, but the carpet isn’t exactly what I want. Or your car is great, but you wish that it had the ventilated seats.
I’m talking about the people that hate capitalism so badly that they join their local communist/marxist
party and do nothing but complain about the country, and how much they hate it here. Everyone knows a person that constantly complains about something but refuses to change their peeve. All I want to do is help them rectify their situation more to their liking.
With that said, capitalism yay.
Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 16:02
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Nah... this is not an example of taking things too far.
THIS is an example of taking things too far:
I agree that if you can afford a large inefficient vehicle then you can afford the gas. However if you institute a tax based on how much it is used then any percentage
tax on gas is not the same to the person who can only afford a well used Accord/Camry vs the person who splurged on a King Cowboy infinity cab.
Obviously that example can be skewed because you are comparing a vehicle that will mitigate its extra tax due to its efficiency. I would wonder at what level of tax would it make a negligible difference for the working poor vs actually being a useful amount of money.
Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
> Tripper
08/17/2020 at 16:05
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I own tools too!
Maybe that explains the push to call everything a “crossover”.
“It’s not a passenger car, it’s a crossover, therefore I should not have to pay as much tax on it.”
Future next gen S2000 owner
> camarov6rs
08/17/2020 at 16:12
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I think if you really wanted to make it viable for both ends, you have to eliminate the gas tax paid at the pump and institute a gas tax based on income. If you have any vehicle registered in your name you pay it and it scales with your income.
That option probably isn’t ideal either. If someone bought an expensive car but worked from home, they wouldn’t really contribute to road degradation. The working poor driving everyday would contribute more to road degradation.
I don’t know. I don’t see any real fair way to do it. It comes out like all other taxes, those without means will struggle to pay it and those with means won’t be affected. Those in the middle will spend less somewhere else and move on.
Yeah, I completely agree. What’s lost in the “tear down this awful flawed system” mantra is that it’s
still a system that’s effectively
delivered more upward mobility to more people over the long term than any system ever conceived.
It needs some tweaks, sure, but I view the system as fundamentally like an ISO9000 Form of Government— “Able to recognize its flaws, issue ‘corrective actions’ and get better over time”. Never perfect, but long since better than any other system on the planet.
And, no, please don’t burn it down.
I tried finding the legal classification that draws the line between car and SUV/crossover for this law, but no luck so far.
I’d bet the number of those people is directly linked to the number of billionaires.
Probably a combination of taxes that would look at purchase price, efficiency, road use and income. That gets into the overly burdensome to manage I would think, gotta keep those guys at HR Block employed I guess
Nah something exotic like alligator skin
interior
I don’t have a problem with European socialism! It works for them, allows for private property and business, and gives its citizens the opportunity to both better society and prosper from it. They don’t have a problem with high taxes, and I’m certainly not one to argue with them. My point, however, is that if someone lives in, let’s say, Hawaii, and constantly complains that the US system is the worst system in the world; why wouldn’t they want to move to a place with a system that they’d like more? Why live in a place that they absolutely despise instead of doing something that would make them so much happier?
I don’t want to force anyone to go anywhere that they don’t want to go, but if someone hates where they are and wants to be in a country like Norway, why wouldn’t they move to Norway? Love communism? Let’s get you to Cuba! I HAVE A FRIEND THAT ACTUALLY MOVED TO CUBA to be a part of that system! Let’s get people to where they like! But don’t be fooled that capitalism hasn’t done more for humankind in the form of innovation than any other system before it.
Also, let me be perfectly clear: my thoughts on political and economic systems comes from my formal and informal education and not from biased sources like news outlets (HA) or any politician (DOUBLE HA). It comes from looking at raw data and being able to compare differences without being swayed by past experiences. For example, the US is a consumer-driven economy and has been for decades. You can hate it all you want, but that’s what keeps the lights on here and in all the manufacturing-based economies that send their goods here.
Basically, it all boils down to this: I don’t hate European socialism, communism is horrific in practice, capitalism has spurred innovation, and I am a firm believer that if you don’t like the system that you’re in, move to a place that has the system you like.
And yay capitalism.
I’m talking about the people that hate capitalism so badly that they join their local communist/marxist party and do nothing but complain about the country, and how much they hate it here.
Think you’ve been hanging around outside the local Marxist chapter house too much. I don’t know a single person like this and I live in the supposed socialist hotpot of Portland, OR and went to grad
school where all future unemployed socialists go to get educated - Santa Cruz, CA.
I don’t want to force anyone to go anywhere that they don’t want to go, but if someone hates where they are and wants to be in a country like Norway, why wouldn’t they move to Norway? Love communism? Let’s get you to Cuba!
Are you suggesting...OPEN BORDERS?! People can’t just get up and leave. And there are a million reasons people want to stay where they are, with it being home and all. Isn’t fighting for what you believe in, and what you believe your country should be, what America is all about? You seem to be suggesting that folks who disagree with you should just leave. You do mention people who do nothing but complain and bitch on the country 24/7, and as I had mentioned I really don’t know any such person. They are an absolute minority in this country, and you’re using your view of this minority to paint broad strokes about many people who have legitimate and reasonable positions.
You yourself mention European socialism. Capitalism didn’t just come about, people made it happen. So if other people today want to fight to move the country more towards the ideals of Democratic Socialism why shouldn’t they? You’re welcome to disapprove of it, but it’s silly to say that they should just leave. Even if they wanted to, in case you didn’t know you can’t just pack your bags and decide that now you’re a Norwegian citizen.
Gerry197
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 17:44
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Well, FCA had to come out with something, be prepared for GM to bring out their thing as well.
“If you don’t like it, leave” is bullshit.
Our system of governance is not immutable. That’s why we have elections
.
You’ve parroted another false dichotomy pushed by those who wish to keep the bad status quo: that the only way to achieve European-style socialism is with much higher taxes.
While it is true that tax rates in most European countries are higher than the US, the taxes here aren’t
that
much lower, and when you add in the exponentially higher healthcare costs that
US citizens (and businesses!) pay, the difference becomes much smaller.
Further, t
he main
activity that drives a country’s
economy—
whether
that’s
consumerism,
manufacturing, or even
bottling mother
fucking unicorn far
ts—
has
no bearing on whether it is possible and/or
advisable
for the government to implement social programs for the benefit of its citizens. Our consumerism-driven economy does not in any way
require a lack of social programs or consumer protections in order
to function or even to maximize profit
. Which is exactly why I
already said,
It is especially foolish to do this in the USA where the #1 engine that drives our economy is consumers buying shit. If the bottom 25% of our society was able to actually support their lifestyle instead of living in an endless debt/poverty cycle, we’d have that many more consumers buying shit and driving the economy.
A capitalist consumerist economy
functions because the people at the top
sell as much shit as possible to the people lower down the ladder. If the bottom of the ladder is a nearly
immobile underclass with structural barriers that prevent its members from achieving their way into higher economic classes,
with no consistent ability to spend money on things beyond the bare necessities, that’s money left on the table for the people at the top.
If only there were some way to redistribute a little of that wealth, maybe those at the top of the capitalism pyramid might earn some more customers.
SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media
> PatBateman
08/17/2020 at 18:14
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Ford does sell Raptor in Oz...only it’s the Ranger version. None of the F-
Series trucks are engineered for RHD...and Ford Oz has no interest in a conversion program
(like FCA &
RAM
does)
that’s why we don’t get them.
Verdog ~ manual Bro, Bro - HellHawk Equipped
> Spanfeller is a twat
08/17/2020 at 18:38
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I would trade the TrackHawk for this. No Questions Asked.
As much as I like ridiculous trucks, from a practicality standpoint, the Trackhawk is less insensible
than the TRX for my particular driving needs. So I guess that if I had to choose, I'd get the Trackhawk... Even if the new GC is being tested as we speak.
Are you suggesting...OPEN BORDERS?!
Was I unclear?
You don’t believe that people should move back and forth to places they want to be at?
My entire point of this asinine thread is that I want to help people move to places they want to be. Want to move to Cuba? I want to help get you there! Want to move to Norway? Let’s figure it out so you can go!
What’s the fucking problem?
For some reason I cannot stand cars. Having a Great Dane doesn’t help.
I have used and need a truck for use and
a hobby, but have family I can borrow from.
I traded a 2500 Ram
Hemi for a Genesis 5.0 R-Spec and sold it after 6 months and went back to a 2500 but a Cummins. Then I started looking at the TrackHawks and was sold. Height, Seats, Tow
ing,
Cargo but no bulk room or gooseneck
.
This would blend both worlds. PERFECTLY.
BUT... for giddy fun... the TrackHawk is still my favorite vehicle and I have more thumbs up then ever. It is the Ultimate vehicle with the AWD and go speed.
FIRST OF ALL, stop posting multiple god damned posts to quote me in some dumb attempt at a “gotcha” moment. I live in Texas, and I PERSONALLY KNOW several people that are staunch socialists. My little sister? A self-proclaimed communist. I have many friends with many different belief sets, and yes, some of them constantly complain.
I’d love to help them out and get them into a situation that they’re happy with. Are you more into keeping them where they are and letting them be unhappy?
The problem is 1) that you can’t just pack up and move to Norway. Immigration laws are a thing, it’s very hard to go settle in another country permanently, especially to highly developed nations
(source - myself, I already did this once moving to this country and it took me 17 years to become a citizen), and 2) people do have the right to promote the economic and political systems they want to see enacted in this country. I believe it’s part of the 1st amendment to the US constitution.
“If you don’t like it, leave” is bullshit.
I have never said anything of the sort, and stop trying to put words in my mouth. I simply have been saying that anyone that constantly complains about the system that they’re in should be given the opportunity to leave to a place that’s more to their liking, and I would be happy to help them. What’s the problem? Are you saying that I shouldn’t help them? That they should be forced, due to economic reasons and governmental bureaucracy
, to stay where they are? That doesn’t sound very American to me. Are we not founded on freedom? Do we not help out our neighbors when they need assistance?
*reading over the rest of your comments, realizing you’re taking this conversation way more serious than I am
... then I get to the bottom*
That last part sounds a whole lot like you want the government to take people’s savings. I believe that’s called “Collectivization”, comrade.
